“There have been many times where I've just decided, like, this ain't worth it, it really ain't worth it.”
This Firezide Friday we’re chatting with Abubakar Salim, who plays Alyn of Hull in the HBO fantasy series House of the Dragon and runs independent game maker Surgent Studio.
We chat about how game development is much harder than being an actor, what the industry can do to push back against toxicity and support diverse voices, and why he’d most like to be reincarnated as a cat.
We have a lot of great guests coming up, so thanks for sticking with us!
Kirk and the Firezide Chat team
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Abubakar Salim
OCCUPATION: Actor and game developer.
AGE: 33
BACKGROUND: Played Bayek of Siwa in Assassin’s Creed Origins and decided it was a good idea to try making games. It wasn’t.
Kirk: I didn't realize you were so much younger than me, man. That's really depressing. You've achieved more. Where did you grow up?
Salim: I grew up in Hertfordshire. So I grew up in Welwyn Garden City, which was an interesting upbringing – it was really removed from the London space, even though it was like an hour away.
When I was growing up, there weren't really many black families, so it was an interesting experience, to say the least, but ultimately, though, I think it did me really well. The schools were great, I had a great time, made lots of good friends there, and I was introduced to drama and the arts there. I did a lot of extracurricular activities, so it was actually quite a nice experience.
What was it like being into the arts and stuff at a young age? Because I don't know what it's like where you're from, but around here that they get you beaten up, you know.
I think I did drama to just be silly and stuff. I didn't really take it seriously when I was a kid, it was a fun thing to do, to play, and I really fancied the girls in my school, so I was just like, okay, let's, let's hang out and play. It was just typical kiddish behavior, but then at the same time, my mates, who I would play Dungeons & Dragons with, were also doing drama. It was just fun, you know.
There's quite a bit of crossover with the DND scene and actors isn’t there?
Most actors that I speak to haven't actually played DND,
Is it more voice actors?
Yeah, and I think it's because it's quite nerdy, which is quite funny now, because it's become such a mainstream thing in a way – it's one of those cool things that everyone wants to try.
I was very fortunate to have found it quite young and fallen in love with it, and that sort of inspired the whole roleplaying and improvisation kind of thing. So definitely good for improvisation.
What did your parents do?
My dad was a software engineer. He worked at Xerox at the time, so we had all these like C+ books – he was very much the techie guy. My mum was a carer. She worked for a company called Sage Care, don't know if they're still going, but she would essentially go to people who needed help.
What about your acting career? What was your big break?
It's a funny question, because I think the one thing that I'm beginning to learn is, there's no such thing as a big break. I remember chasing that a lot when I was starting out, this idea of like, oh, I just need that one big break, that one big job. Now I've had quite a few decent jobs, and naturally you would think that's the break, but actually, truthfully, it's just a notch on the wall.
I'd say, actually, the one role I remember doing, which kind of set in stone my confidence in filming or being in front of camera, probably was when doing Assassin's Creed Origins, weirdly enough, because I had to learn lines so quickly, and then record the next day. That really set for me this sort of work ethic. Before that it was like bit roles here and there, and you know, doing one role here, one role there, but that really kind of set the kind of the precedent of how to actually film for a long period of time.
Yeah, I think probably a lot of actors who have not done games don't realise quite how intense it is, right?
Yeah, I think I think it's one of those ones where it's such a useful tool as an actor to know, because it is so intense.
What would make you turn down a role? I'm sure you've turned plenty down, but what is it that makes you flip the off button?
It comes down to essentially the story that's being told and the character. I've had roles offered where it just doesn't feel like I'm the right person, like someone else could do it, you know. I think ultimately it comes down to what best serves the story, and it's a harsh reality that I think a lot of actors have to face – there is a story, an ultimate story that has been in mind, and a vision in mind that needs to be told in the best way it can, that needs to emerge to the audience and make them believe what's going on.
If you cast me as a school kid, it's not necessarily going to be very believable. I think there's a lot of actors out there who would say money or content, but I do generally believe it is just about whether the character feels right or whether it doesn't.
And what gets you excited about a role?
Characters who are a bit morally gray or just a bit more complex and nuanced. If I read a script and there's a character that that gets me asking more questions, like where they're from, what's their intention, and it inspires me to ask these questions, that to me is what's gripping.
I think that's why villains are so interesting most of the time, because you are already asking, how could you be so wrong, or how did you get to the point of where you are in your life, you know? And I think that's why they're interesting to actors, because they are already complex, they already have a history which has led them to commit the things that they do. So yeah, I'd say it's more so about characters with complexity.
Obviously you're an actor, but you're also a game developer now, so how did that happen?
Oh man, I think I drew a very unlucky card in my life and decided that game developing was the right way to go. I've always been in love with games – as I said, my dad was a techie, so he introduced me to games when I was a kid, and the art and love for it, and I think that's what really drove me to explore that world. I'm dyslexic, so I reading wasn't necessarily a very fun experience for me. I still struggle, and watching TV, I don't know, I constantly wanted to be doing things, so then by playing a game and going through the story that way, it was a lot more enticing to me.
On deciding to make games:
"I think I drew a very unlucky card in my life and decided that game developing was the right way to go."
It's funny, because my career sort of went through playing like lots of games, not really knowing that you can have a career in it, being an actor, watching films because it was a space that I wanted to get into, doing theater, TV, but playing games as a way of escaping as a hobby. Then I lost my dad, and after losing him, I remember thinking I really need to tell this story in some way. For a while, I was thinking maybe I'll tell it as a TV show. Then Covid hit, and it was that moment where it was like, actually, I could do this as a game, because I was playing Ori at the time, and it just made sense, and that's how the journey happened. I was really leaning into the people that I knew from doing Assassin's Creed, and asking them questions of, like, how do you get into games? All of them told me not to – I should have listened – but that's essentially how it started. It came from a place of wanting to tell a really personal story, because I knew then, if I was going to tell this story, I wasn't going to give up no matter how hard it was. And it was hard, but I didn't give up.
So, a lot of people support you, myself included, but there's a lot of hostile dickheads in the audience. Did that take you by surprise?
It did. I think the times have just shifted and changed. Games have never been so much more accessible because of the internet and because of online culture, but it's also never been so much more toxic. I'm not going to put the blame entirely on toxic characters, because I think there's also an element of the industry to blame for allowing it to fester.
It almost champions that, do you know what I mean? Not necessarily champions it, but lets it go by. It's so obvious now that there is so much more money to be gained in hate than there is in actual like critical thinking or opinions coming from a place of: this is how you can be better. It's like, “no, you're shit. Leave.” Do you know what I mean? I've said this in interviews before, the thing that I love about Supergiant is that they spent years perfecting and getting to a place where Hades is. It took them time, and if they released Bastion game in today's climate, it would be so different.
I think like that's sort of the the climate we're in today, there's no room for error, there is literally no room to grow, which is so vastly different in film and TV, and being an actor, where you're constantly faced with rejection and constantly faced with no in order to be better. I don't know why it doesn't seem to be supported in the games industry. So, yeah, it's a weird one. It's a very weird relationship I'm having with this space.
Yeah, I mean, obviously you sound like you're regretting your decision to do game development, a little bit.
Yeah, I mean, you know what? I'm not really a big believer of regrets. I think you learn lessons through the things that you do, and you've got to take that on board. And I don't know, call that the optimistic actor in me, constantly doing auditions and having rejection that way. I don't regret at all being in games. I think games brought so much brilliance and beauty in my life – the people that I work with, you never really get that as an actor because the production companies are very isolated and close-knit and tight, whereas working in a studio, you're working with multiple people all the time. You've got friends, you're building and developing relationships, even with the industry itself. Like talking to you, mate – I'd never have this kind of rapport with interviewers in the film and TV space. You appear, you say a thing, you look and smile, and then you leave – you never really actually have open and honest conversations because you're representing HBO, you're representing Netflix.
On the myth of the big break:
"There's no such thing as a big break. I remember chasing that a lot when I was starting out... but actually, truthfully, it's just a notch on the wall."
I've learned more about myself, and kind of strengthened my confidence in myself, because of games, but I would be remiss if I didn't mention that there is still a lot that needs to be looked at and worked on in games. I think it is a beautiful industry, but I consider myself very open-minded, hardy and resilient, but there have been many times where I've just decided, like, this ain't worth it, it really ain't worth it. But again, I see so much more potential in it than I do with film and TV, and it's a space that I'm just gonna constantly be bullish about.
It's probably harder for you, as a black man, as well. Let's be honest, because there's quite a large portion of the audience who are just openly racist, right?
Yeah, I mean, you're seeing it now with Harry Potter and Snape and stuff. I think it's just so.. it's just really boring.
I'm good mates with Paapa [Essiedu, Snape actor]. He's my boy. He gets it, but because it's Snape, there's almost a degree of separation – it's still on him, but at the same time he can still separate it from him and still kind of persevere and continue. I think my issue was to make everything quite personal. Like, the first game I made was about my dead dad, you know, and still people think I'm trying to pass off this message or that it's for an audience I’m catering to. It's just very boring. I'm tired of saying it's hard for me because I'm black, because I already feel like I'm giving people ammo.
Almost impossible to navigate, right?
It is impossible to navigate, which is why it's boring and tiring. I can see why it's so easy to be like fuck it, I'm just gonna go and do my thing, I'm just gonna be an actor, or work in a space that I'm enjoyed in, but then I think about me as a kid who loved video games. If I knew that you could have a career in games when I was a kid, I probably would have done that instead of being an actor. I think of kids who go to school to study this, who dedicate their life, not really knowing the ruthlessness of the industry, both in and out of it, and I feel there’s a responsibility for me to essentially try, in any way, shape, or form to inspire and show it is possible.
What do you think we can do to improve things?
I think there is a way that you can, and I think that it's about taking more risks. There's a few factors here. Industry level wise, I think the people in charge, the people with money, the people with power, essentially need to take more risks. I will always, always say that the EA Originals team are probably the best in the industry in regards to risk takers that I have ever encountered. Because here I am, this actor who's worked on Assassin's Creed, who says that he loves games and wants to make a video game about his dead dad. So already, like business wise, I could, that could raise flags – he's going to be too perfectionist about it, so it's going to be on the constant development cycle of hell, he has no experience with what it means to run a game studio and or make a game. He's an actor, so he might want to be the main character, and it might become this main character syndrome, or whatever, which is already a problem for business, because business is a team sport.
There's a lot of risks, but they took it on me, and that was that was brilliant, because it not only taught me what it meant to make a game, it created 30-40 more jobs, and it allowed other people as well, who were just graduating, to get the experience to then go to the next job. It also brought a story that not many people see or hear about, and know about. It's about taking risks on the right projects and going for it. None of this chasing that one developer in their back room making one game that might make millions – of course, do that, but there's this beauty in film and TV, and it's still going strong, where the people who invest in film and TV know that then their money isn't going to come back. It’s almost a nice surprise when it does.
On the games industry's intolerance for failure:
"There's no room for error, there is literally no room to grow, which is so vastly different in film and TV... I don't know why it doesn't seem to be supported in the games industry."
As an actor, you're not aiming to get famous, neither are you aiming to make a lot of money, you're doing it for the love of the work. Everything else is extra.
You can really see those actors who genuinely care, like Joaquin Phoenix, Denzel Washington, where they care about the art, and it's because they're really good at what they do, and the risks that they've taken is why they've excelled and gone to a place where it's like, "Oh, wow, I would have never seen that," right.
And so I think on an industry level, it's about publishers literally taking more risks and being a bit more ballsy about, like, "Yeah, I'm gonna give this guy or this girl a chance at telling this story or going for it." Then I would say, on a player level, on a consumer level, I just think we've got to be a bit louder, I think,
About the things we like, you mean?
About the things we like, and also, we've got to engage more in critical thinking.
This is also why I really love reviewers and reading reviews, because they are coming from a place of, "I'm looking at this as an art form, and I'm assessing what is good about this game, what could be better about this game, and here is my opinion."
I think more people should talk like that about games, rather than necessarily being like, "This is the best, greatest game of all time," or "this is the shittest game." I feel like that is such a disservice, being so black and white, where you actually need to look at it as a picture as a whole, and treat it as, "Well, this is what works, and this is what doesn't, and let's have a discussion about it." And if you don't agree with me, then that's totally fine.
I remember saying to a mate of mine that I didn't actually really like Baldur's Gate 3. I spent 100 or so hours in the game, completed it, and did everything, but thought it was all right. Performances were incredible and all this sort of stuff, but there was something about it that made me stick at it to the bitter end, because that's just my character and who I am. And he said, "You're gonna get canceled if you say that publicly. You're gonna get so many people who fucked a bear who are gonna fucking hate you." And I was like, "Great, okay, good, good to know."
But having that dialogue and conversation about it is important, and I think it's okay to not necessarily like something and still come at it with an open conversation. If you say that you actually really like it, I'm not going to turn around and tell you that you're an idiot and you're stupid and you don't know what you're talking about, or you don't know games, you've never played games in your life.
You can tweet, "Oh, I love X game," and someone will be in your fucking replies saying that's dog shit, like, years later, oh my god.
Films get Letterboxd and stuff. People leave really thoughtful reviews of films, and then you've got Metacritic, where everyone's just like, "Worst piece of shit, garbage, zero out of ten."
It's mad, but the thing is, there is more of that dog piling than there is with people being critical and open about something. Which is why, weirdly enough, Steam has its moments where, if a game isn't being completely shit on for the wrong reasons, the reviews and the majority of reviewers on there do actually give thoughtful and constructive feedback.
If you look at the difference between Zau's reviews and Dead Take reviews, it's actually quite stellar. Ultimately, it's about just being a bit more critical.
On how hard it is to ship a game:
"You think it just pops out of nowhere, but actually there is so much time, care, and magic. It's almost like a miracle to get a game shipped."
And I think, look, games are harder as a barrier of entry, because someone has to know how to work this, right? We've all been doing this for years, so it's like learning piano or playing an instrument. We all know it, so only those people can really have a say about it. Whereas film and TV, you just whack it on and everyone's got an opinion.
So I think there is that level to it, but I do think we need to be, as players, as people, a bit louder in regards to the critical stuff of what we love mainly, but also just being critical rather than just saying, "Oh, it's dog shit." Actually, no, tell me why you didn't like it.
If they could detach from their outlook and look at what you’ve achieved objectively, you came from no game development background, you made a really great Metroidvania, then you made a completely different horror game, now you've made a co-op game, and all in a very short span of time, it's fucking impressive, man.
And people will say it's positive reinforcement, but it's like, look, I made three games. There are people out there shouting about people and haven't even made a game. It's just like, come on, man. Just understand the wider concept of it and be like, "No, that's really cool. Maybe this is where you could be better off, or what you could try doing."
You're experimenting and trying new things all the time.
Yeah, I think that's important too, putting myself out of my comfort zone. I'm so used to doing that within the acting and TV space, constantly being uncomfortable, playing one role, playing this role, doing stuff, because otherwise it's not going to inspire me, and I'm not going to learn anything.
Again, I've never really played horror games. I enjoyed Silent Hill and played Resident Evil, but it wasn't my jam. But there was something about it, so in my mindset, I was like, "Well, let me try and tackle it and crack on." And lo and behold, it was one of my most fun experiences.
So I think it's about people needing to be comfortable being uncomfortable, and talking about that.
Dead Take. I think that's a game that could have only come from you in the same way as Zau, just in a different way, because it's about actors and all that stuff.
Yeah, there's nuances and perspectives that I think I can bring to it, especially understanding how games work, as well as film and TV, that only I could probably bring into it. But that's not to say if Ben Starr decided to make a game tomorrow, he'd probably bring his own spin and his own collective ideas and thoughts on it.
He’d make some Final Fantasy style RPG.
He'll probably sell fucking millions, but yeah.
We've obviously talked about the downsides, but what's the best thing about being an actor and being a game dev? Two separate questions.
I mean, one of the greatest things about acting is the fact that I get to go around the world. That's really cool, exposing myself to different cultures, different people, different personalities, also different stories.
A lot of Zau was inspired not only by my own stories and what my dad would share with me, but also I was filming Raised by Wolves in South Africa at the time, and that allowed me to open and expand my mind to the different tribes and people there, and hear their stories. Also, learn more about the game development out there.
Being an actor has been really magical because there's something really cool about telling these stories and living these different lives, and also having fun while doing it.
When it comes to games, I have a much deeper appreciation now as a developer for people who are able to ship games. I never really knew how hard it was to get a game out there. You think it just pops out of nowhere, but actually there is so much time, care, and magic. It's almost like a miracle to get a game shipped.
I can only compare it to learning about The Simpsons in media studies. Once you know the story behind everything, the context and the satirical nature of it, you never see The Simpsons the same again. It's a constant commentary on social aspects.
I now look at games in a way where I can see the design, I can see the care for it, and it just makes me appreciate it even more. And as I said, I've definitely met more great and good people through games than bad agents. That has fulfilled me and made me feel less isolated, because acting can be that.
Games connected me on a much deeper level, and allowed me to enjoy telling the stories that I want to tell. That's the biggest thing. It's the reason why I'm still in it, because it's a space where I can engage in a good, clean way with people in games, and feel like there was a change being made, rather than film and TV, where it is actually quite stuck in its ways as a whole.
Did you have normal jobs before you started acting?
No, again, I'm one of those... and look, it's not even like I'm well off, mate, at all. We were in a little council house in this cul-de-sac when I was growing up. My mum was working two jobs as a carer.
Dad was the main breadwinner, obviously working as a software engineer, but even then, we only really had time to go on one holiday a year, and that was mainly to Kenya to go back home, and we'd stay with family there.
But the thing is, I've always had this mentality, and I know my wife hates me for it. I'm so bullish and dogmatic when I want something that nothing else gets in my way. I think I was like 13 when I decided I wanted to be an actor, and I was not going to do anything else.
I ended up getting my first job at like 14 or 15 on a TV show, because I was doing all this writing, sending letters, doing theatre stuff, and I was so bullish and dogmatic about it that I basically got this role. The money from that was only like 700 quid at the time for this one-day gig.
That's loads of money as a kid.
This is what I mean. I was like, "This is my life for the rest of my life, this is great."
But I remember putting that in the account and saving it, being like, "Right, okay, I'm not going to spend this money. I'm going to keep doing these auditions and keep pushing myself."
I remember doing work experience at Pizza Hut in Hatfield and just telling myself, "Yeah, I can't do this." I was gonna end up saying something horrible to someone, and I just didn't want to expose myself to that.
So yeah, I've always been hustling on the acting front.
And at drama school, I was very lucky. I got a scholarship to go there, so I didn't even have fees to pay. That was so great, because I don't know how I would have done it otherwise. I remember it was one of those scholarships where they give you money for your education and a little bit extra to help with whatever needs and support you need.
Bro, I think I came out of drama school with more money than I went in.
I literally went to training, then went to bed. Went to training, went to bed. Never went out or did any of that stuff. So I've always been pretty bullish on that front. So yeah, never had a nine to five.
Who do you admire most in the TV and movies industry?
Oh God, that's hard.
It changes, or it doesn't even change, it just adds to it, because everyone's got such a unique and interesting story. I'd say people like Daniel Kaluuya, Riz Ahmed, Ridley Scott, Jack O'Connell, Gideon Murphy, Damson Idris, Sophie Rundle.
The reason why I'm naming these people is because they've set a path and shown that it is possible to do what you do. An example is Ridley Scott. Working with him taught me that running on instinct and trusting your first thought sometimes does you more favours than overthinking. And trusting your team to do their thing means you can actually get something done, rather than trying to be the leader and the pack master all the time. That was something really powerful I learned from Ridley.
I remember working with Sophie Rundle on Jamestown, and she was one of those actresses who's incredibly brilliant and really good at what she does. When the camera turns on, she's on. When it's off, she's just herself. I really respected her professionalism. I've worked with actors who come on set believing themselves to be the bees' fucking knees, and they end up being known as the bad egg. You don't want to work with them. I remember watching Sophie and thinking, "She's phenomenal." Now she's in Peaky Blinders, she's a good mate of mine now, and her and her husband Matt Stokoe are some of my closest mates. They're brilliant and inspiring.
On the best advice he's been given:
"Don't ever compare your journey to others. Your journey is always going to be unique to yourself."
Same with Michaela Coel. Michaela Coel was someone I worked with on Black Mirror, and she was someone who just wanted to tell stories. She decided the industry wasn't giving her a moment, so she made her own. She did Chewing Gum, that blew up. Then she did I May Destroy You, which was incredible and did so well. But it all came from her.
I remember I was doing this horrible theatre gig where I wasn't happy, but I was locked into it for over two years. I remember talking to her about it, and she gave me the confidence to say, "If you're not happy and you don't want to do it, just leave." After two or three months, I got out. That's sacrilege in the acting industry because you always think you're only as good as the last thing you did. But she was like, "If you're not happy, you're not doing anyone any favours." Fortunately, my agent was incredibly understanding and got me out of it.
Why weren't you happy with that production?
It was a lot of things. The character I was playing and the way it was depicted wasn't necessarily something I was comfortable with. It was the biggest theatre gig I'd had yet, incredibly prestigious, and I learned a lot from it. What I've taken from that gig has helped me exponentially in future work, even today. But the show and some of the people in it just weren't my vibe. I felt like I was doing it a disservice and making myself miserable.
But Michaela gave me the confidence to listen to my own voice, in the same way she listened to hers. Now she's excelling. She's in Black Panther, she's working with Ian McKellen, she's doing so much. And it all started from her saying, "No, I have something to say here."
I mention Daniel Kaluuya and Riz Ahmed because they're incredible artists who can not only write and tell their own stories, but also perform in ways that feel inspiring and powerful. With Riz and this new TV show, I think it's brilliant and hilarious. Obviously, it's not perfect, but it's something a lot of people can resonate with and connect to. You don't have to be Indian or Muslim or even British to resonate with it.
The same way with Zau. The African mythology wasn't the be all and end all, it just made sense because of my perspective. Ultimately the story was about grief.
The same thing with Riz. Ultimately the story is about identity and who you are, but he's shaped it through being a Muslim actor in Britain.
Write what you know.
Exactly. When you write what you know, you deliver nuance, authenticity, and genuine moments.
Obviously those gave you some good advice there, but what's the best bit of life advice you've heard?
It's funny you ask this, because my default answer is always "brush your teeth twice a day." That's if I'm feeling lazy. But I'd say the best advice I was given is: don't ever compare your journey to others. Your journey is always going to be unique to yourself. And I say that because I have to keep reminding myself of it too. It keeps me peaceful and grounded.
On his own stubbornness:
"I'm so bullish and dogmatic when I want something that nothing else gets in my way. I think I was like 13 when I decided I wanted to be an actor, and I was not going to do anything else."
I remember when I started with the EA Originals team and was really happy. I remember talking with Josef Fares, and he was like, "Yeah man, this is great. It's a great opportunity." And Josef is incredibly successful. He's able to tell the stories he wants whenever he wants, and he does it really well. So there was an element of me that fell into the trap of thinking, "Oh, maybe my next game will be this, then the next one will be the next thing."
Obviously that journey wasn't right. And that was a big reminder to stop comparing myself.
What you said there with Josef's games as well, Brothers came out in a different industry, really.
It did,
You're missing that context if you're comparing yourself to that.
This is it. It's funny you say that, because at the time that context didn't land, but I had to be in it and go through the noise to really understand it. Which is why I always come back to the whole Supergiant, Bastion, Hades trajectory. It's just a different industry now. It's evolved and changed so much. I can actually say with confidence that it would be a completely different trajectory today. It was such a different time with Brothers and where that came from, and then with A Way Out.
Yeah, A Way Out did okay, but it wasn't massive, and they couldn't have made It Takes Two without that game, so—
Yeah, but this is it. It's fascinating to really see that and take it all on board. People don't see that. In the same way people say, ‘Oh, this is your big break,’ and you're like, ‘No, man, I've been working for 20 fucking years as an actor. I just luckily happened to get this role.’
Plus you don't want to think, ‘Oh yeah, I've peaked, that's it.’ Your best times are probably in front of you, right?
I remember at drama school, everyone wanted the big agents and the big roles. Funnily enough, Star Wars was open casting at the time during my final year of training. Obviously it went to John Boyega, but I remember thinking, ‘Man, I've gotta get this role. This is it. This is going to be the big break.’
And there's a part of me now that's actually happy I didn't get it. It would have set this mentality in me that I'd peaked already, that the only way was down afterward. The hardship really made me more confident, more trusting, and more of a safe bet as an actor, rather than someone who just expects everything to happen for them.”
And you didn't have to be in Rise of Skywalker.
Mate, yeah. Jesus. Oh my God.
That's the other thing that scares me. You can sign onto something thinking it's going to be the best thing ever, then you're in it and seeing the story unfold thinking, ‘Oh man, how do I save this?’ And you can't do anything as an actor. Literally.”
You've just gotta say, ‘Somehow Palpatine returned.’
[Laughs]
What do you dislike most about yourself?
Probably my need to tell stories and be honest. Sometimes I think, ‘Man, if I'd just been a pilot or a banker, or something less tied to art and subjective opinion...’
You get the odd clap when you land, and ultimately—
The important bit is landing.
Exactly.
Even with banking, it's maths. It's numbers. But with acting, I could give the performance of a lifetime and someone could still turn around and say it's shit.
You can't ever please everyone.
Exactly. And this is why I think, at least with pilots, as long as you land the plane, you've pleased everyone.”
As an actor, do you have to be at the gym a lot?
Yeah, it's a thing. Look, I've even got – look at this – protein. I'm traveling with it.
That doesn't look like protein.
I'm constantly training, constantly trying to look the best I can. And honestly, if I wasn't an actor, I'd probably be tattooed, fat, covered in piercings, because that's my vibe. I love food. I love sitting down watching films. I probably wouldn't move much. I enjoy the gym, but truthfully I'd rather chill.
I love tattoos too. Always wanted one. But tattoos mean another four hours in the makeup chair, and I like my sleep. Same with piercings – you can't really hide them in film and TV. So instead I stay in shape and adjust my appearance depending on the role.
For Raised by Wolves, Ridley wanted me to match Amanda's physique as closely as possible. She was very thin and lean, so I had to lose loads of weight. I went from 109kg to about 85kg in three months. Madness, bro.
I bet you looked ripped though.
Yeah, I looked incredible, but it wasn't healthy or sustainable. And I wanted to do it naturally because I don't want a heart attack at 40. Your body adjusts eventually, but it's hard. It's like playing on prestige mode in Call of Duty.
Then for House of the Dragon, it was the opposite. They wanted a more natural look rather than a Hollywood movie-star physique. So yeah, it's definitely something I'm aware of. Literally after this call I'm going to the gym again. It's just part of life now.
What time do you get up and go to bed?
Do I go to bed? Before I had my daughter, I was a complete night owl. I'd go to bed at like 2am, wake up at 6am, train, and just run on four hours of sleep – which is obviously terrible.
Then I met my wife, had my daughter, and now I try to sleep around 10 or 11 and wake up at 5 to train. Still not enough sleep, but better than before. I've actually got an alarm on my phone set for 9pm telling me to go to sleep because my daughter is usually asleep by 7 or 8 if we're lucky.”
Do you have a party trick?
A party trick? Yes.
What is it?
I can beatbox.
Can you?
Yeah.
Can you give us an example?
You’re like “perform, monkey”.
I’d never say that!
Performs beatboxing
Mate, I couldn't even hear it.
Now it just looks like I'm making weird movements. Hold on, I'm recording it on my phone and sending it to you because otherwise you're going to release this video and I'll look insane.
You're a prick. There you go. Sent it to your WhatsApp.
I'll send that to the video guy. I genuinely couldn't hear it.
Yes, it's called speaking in tongues.
What’s the best game you've played in the last ten years?
Oh, in the last ten years? Bro…
You can narrow it down to recently.
Okay, recently? Slay the Spire.
One or two?
Both. Right now I'm addicted. Absolutely addicted.
Two came out and I realised I'd never actually played the first one properly. It was already sitting in my library, so I finally tried it because everyone talks about it.
I played through the first game and thought, ‘This is insane.’ Then I told myself I couldn't buy the sequel until I'd completed a proper run in the first game.
Then I bought Slay the Spire 2, and it's amazing.
I love the Necrobinder especially.
Oh my God, so good. And I love the little character snippets you get between acts. Those little details are brilliant. I wanted even more of that in Slay the Spire.
That game is dangerous though. I'll sit down and suddenly six hours have passed.
Literally. And because I'm traveling so much, it works perfectly for flights and hotel rooms.
The problem is when you're meant to be learning lines and instead you're playing Slay the Spire.
If you could go back to any important point in history, where would you go?
I don't know if any period in history would treat me very nicely, man. I got asked this when I did Jamestown, and someone asked if I'd want to go back to that period. I'm like, ‘I'm playing a slave. Why would I want that?’
Okay, imagine you're just an observer in a bubble.
Then probably ancient Greece or Rome. That era where philosophy, culture, and the arts were deeply important. The formation of civilization, Alexander the Great, the Egyptians – all that mixing of cultures and discovery. It would be fascinating to witness.
What about if you could go back and tell your younger self something?
I'd tell him not to take everything so seriously. Be passionate, absolutely, but don't take everything to heart. I used to take things incredibly seriously, when honestly I probably should have relaxed and had more fun.”
When was the last time you cried?
My daughter sang something really sweet recently and it just hit me. I suddenly thought, ‘Oh my God, you're an actual human being singing.’ It's weird how kids do that to you.
The first time my oldest laughed, I was in tears.
“Yeah, having kids makes you way more emotional about everything. Stories, news, films – everything hits harder. One of the first things I said after my daughter was born was, ‘By the time she's my age, I'll be 60.’ My wife looked at me like I was insane.
She was like, ‘We just had a kid. Enjoy this moment. Stop thinking about mortality.’”
Yeah, sometimes I wake up thinking, ‘Oh shit, I'm responsible for a human being.’
“Oh man.
Did you ever have that thing where you both accidentally fall asleep with the baby because you're exhausted, then wake up panicking because all the days blur together and you think you’ve dropped them off the bed?
Yeah. Honestly, I think people have multiple kids because the first nine months are so traumatic that your brain blocks it out.
But honestly, women amaze me. I don't know how they go through childbirth and decide to do it again.
Were you there for the birth?
Yeah.
Did you watch everything?
Yeah.Mate, ours was a 36-hour ordeal.
We tried a home birth, then had to go to the hospital. Tried a water birth. Tried natural delivery. None of it worked. Eventually it ended in a C-section.
We basically went through every possible version of childbirth.
How do you want to be remembered when you die?
It's funny, because Dead Take is all about legacy, and legacy is also a huge theme in Tales of Kenzera. As an actor, part of you wants to be remembered as a great artist. But honestly, I think now I mostly just want my family to remember me as a good man.
When people talk about my dad, they say lovely things about him. Sure, he wasn't perfect, but people remember him fondly. That's what matters to me. If my daughter and family can say, ‘Yeah, he was really cool,’ that's enough.”
What would you put on your gravestone?
‘This man could beatbox.’
I always tell my missus not to waste money on a funeral. Just throw me in the back of a bin lorry.
Exactly. I'm gone. Either I'm reincarnated as something else, or it's just blackness.
What animal would you want to come back as?
A cat. Easily. Cats are treated like royalty. Dogs get ordered around. Cats don't care. They just do whatever they want. People say they'd want to come back as a horse or something majestic, but horses are basically slaves. Cats have won life.
You'd have to lick your own arse though.
Mate, that's still a great life.
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Firezide Chat is produced by Smartfeed Studios. It is our belief that a well-crafted set of seemingly simple questions can reveal more about a person’s inner life than a conventional interview. Every episode delivers life advice, a surprise, and hopefully a good laugh
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